A great recipe and a testament to the Real McCoy!
LaHave Bakery in LaHave, Nova Scotia is famous for its oatcakes. And so it should be. They are scrumpdillyishous! Unforgettable. A trademark of this find province, though better known to be a Cape Breton staple, my oatcake experience started at LaHave Bakery.
I found their facebook page and asked them for the recipe. Understandably, I was told it was a secret. Then a dear reader, (and Thermomix owner), Aileen, from Nova Scotia, let me in on another little secret: If you pick up ” Best Recipes of the Maritime Provinces ” by Elizabeth Baird , you have the recipe you seek. If not ……Here is a link to the recipe! Is that not serendipity? The LaHave Bakery Facebook page then responded: I asked the owner about it, and she did say that she gave out the recipe once to a cookbook. She showed it to me, and it’s called “Patisseries” by James MacDougall, and it’s been adapted for a “home-sized” batch. Not sure if it’s the same recipe as this other book, but hope this helps! 🙂 Very sweet of them, yet a tad confusing as the recipe linked by my reader is from Elizabeth Baird’s book: Best Recipes of the Maritime Provinces. And, I will add as important little ditty at this point: bread uses 4 ingredients (flour, water, yeast and salt), yet there are so many different variations of bread made with these 4 simple ingredients, it is mind boggling. The outcome is in the hand of the maker. All knowledge, practice, skill and tradition cannot possibly all be recorded into any recipe. The touch, texture, aroma… must be known through experience and is why our heritage recipes are handed down most successfully through the generations.
This is an excellent recipe. I am an excellent baker and cook. This recipe, at my learned hand, did not produce the oatcakes that I experienced at LaHave Bakery. It is definitely possible to translate a huge massive recipe into a small home batch. Yet, it is not always possible to create the food the same way without working beside the master, as an apprentice. While I am thrilled to have and share this recipe, The LaHave Bakery Oatcakes are simply better: lighter, more crisp, a little flakier. The flavour was similar. The texture was not. You can see the difference by looking at the actual LaHave Bakery Oatcake, above.
Mis en place. Lots of butter. Two sugars. I believe the whole wheat flour makes a big difference in the flavour of these oatcakes. I milled my own with my Thermomix.
Dry ingredients.
Butter cut in to the dry ingredients.
Form dough into a ball and roll into thick rectangles. The recipe says one ball. I halved it and rolled the dough into two portions to make it easier to work with.
I also thought about the size of the rectangles: 4×2 inches made sense to me. I didn’t measure the original, but the size of the rolled out dough had to have sides and ends divisible by 2 or 4 to make this possible without waste.
I sprinkled the extra oats on for appearance purposes and rolled them in with as little pressure as possible to not move my shape. Nice touch, LaHave Bakery!
Using a ruler, I just measured off one end, made the cuts and moved each oatcake onto a parchment covered cookie sheet for baking.
Above, they are baked. Referring back to the original LaHave Bakery Oatcake, I can see that these should have been baked longer. I followed the instructions on the recipe, and then added about 3 more minutes to get them this brown. It made a truck load of oatcakes, though not even close to the 8 dozen the recipe says it will make. It made 30 this size which is very close to the size of the ones I bought at the bakery and exactly the same size indicated in the recipe. So, I got 30 and the recipe developers got 96. That is a huge discrepancy and probably why mine needed to bake longer. They were 1/4 inch thick, as indicated in the recipe, as well. I suggest adding 3-5 minutes onto the baking time, or starting with a hotter oven.
Though, I will say, that these were pretty darn delicious just as they were. Flaky. Tender. A wee bit dry, though.
A perfect midday snack with no accompanyment needed. Nourishing. Satisfying. Great staying power. I have embraced the oatcake. Can you tell?
Above, the Traditional Scottish Oatcake, without any sugar, made into a small cracker. Next, the Traditional Canadian Oatcake: sugar, oats, not too sweet. Last, the homemade version of the Famous LaHave Bakery Oatcake.
If you are living nowhere close to LaHave Bakery or Cape Breton, or the Atlantic Provinces, like moi… this is a great recipe that will keep you happy until you can get out there and feast on the authentic LaHave Bakery oatcake! The original oatcake from LaHave Bakery is pictured, above.
LaHave Bakery Oatcakes
After visiting this bakery, I was sent this recipe and had to try it! Makes 30 2x4 inch oatcakes though the recipe says it makes 8 dozen. Since then, I have learned that another recipe was published in "Patisseries" by James MacDougall, and it's been adapted for a "home-sized" batch.
Ingredients
- 3 cups large flake slow cooking rolled oats
- 2 cups all purpose flour
- 1 cup whole wheat flour
- ½ cup granulated sugar
- ½ cup packed brown sugar
- 1 teaspoon fine sea salt
- 1 teaspoon baking soda
- 1 ½ cups unsalted butter , cubed (use 1/2 butter and 1/2 lard to be closer to the authentic LaHave Bakery Oatcake)
- ½ cup water (approx.)
- extra slow cooking rolled oats for rolling
Instructions
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Preheat oven to 350F (If you heat the oven at 400F, you could bake them for 12-14 minutes)
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Combine all dry ingredients in a large bowl
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Cut in butter with pastry blender
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Slowly add water until mixture just begins to hold together
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Divide dough into two portions
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On a large surface, roll dough into 10 x 12 inch rectangle ¼ inch thick
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Generously cover the top with extra rolled oats; roll or pat them firmly into the surface of the dough
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Cut into 2x4 inch cakes; place on parchment covered cookie sheet
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Bake for 12-14 minutes, or until golden (possibly go 16-18 minutes)
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Place on cooling rack and store in an airtight container
Recipe Notes
For me, it was much easier to get the size of the dough rolled out for cutting before adding the oats on top
You can see the inside of the LaHave Bakery Oatcake is much darker than the one I made, so I have adjusted baking time
The original recipe says 8 dozen oatcakes, yet following the instructions, I made 30
After word: Referring to the comments section, you can see I found a friend in Aileen. She continued to investigate the authenticity of this recipe with the Bakery and did learn that there is lard in their oatcakes as she asked when there due to the fact that she is vegan and couldn’t eat them if they contained lard. She was told they do. The other recipe that the owner of LaHave Bakery provided to the patisserie cookbook is below, provided to us by Aileen. Certainly, the LaHave Bakery is absolutely entitled to privacy and a secret recipe. I have no problem with this. However, when a recipe is so kindly given out and is inaccurate, that is more than a little disappointing. People who buy and people who bake are completely different people. But, I get it. Bakeries bake and might steal another bakery’s recipe. In any case, the LaHave Bakery Oatcakes have every right to be famous. They are spectacular. I will still work to make them! Thank you, Aileen.
“Patisseries” by James MacDougall, and it’s been adapted for a “home-sized” batch, below.
Valerie Mckinney Rodgers Lugonja Will you share your recipe for Oatcakes The LaHave Bakery?
June 10 at 2:36pm · Like
The LaHave Bakery Valerie, thank you so much for the lovely write up on our bakery, and our oatcakes, but unfortunately I cannot give out the recipe, as they are a trade secret! But I do hope that you will come see us again if you are ever in Nova Scotia. Meanwhile, I am thoroughly enjoying your blog!
June 18 at 5:16pm · Like
Valerie Mckinney Rodgers Lugonja Completely understand. A reader DID send me your recipe from the Elizabeth Baird cookbook – is that different than the one you use?
June 18 at 6:48pm · Like
The LaHave Bakery Well, I asked the owner about it, and she did say that she gave out the recipe once to a cookbook. She showed it to me, and it’s called “Patisseries” by James MacDougall, and it’s been adapted for a “home-sized” batch. Not sure if it’s the same recipe as this other book, but hope this helps.
June 22 at 1:14pm · Like
Valerie Mckinney Rodgers Lugonja Thanks a bunch! I did make the recipe – and will write about it – but it is still not the same as yours…. close, but not the same. V
June 25 at 7:55am · Like
Valerie, this is definitely a variation I will have to try one day. They would be a great snack with a cup of dark rich coffee when I’m having one of my marathon sewing sessions, the sort where I forget to eat until my tummy screams at me. Hugs, Cat
Good for you, Brendi!
Love being that absorbed!
🙂
V
Hi Valerie !
Wow what a mystery ! Elizabeth Baird is usually a reliable resource so I’m surprised that she claimed it was something it wasn’t ! I wonder if LaHave Bakery uses shortening as it’s fat, or a combo of shortening and butter. I would be surprised if a commercial bakery used all butter due to cost. Shortening would also make them flakier and perhaps closer to what you remember 🙂 Worth a shot and the Patiiseries Cookbook may confirm my suspicions.
Aileen
I am Elizabeth Baird’s number one fan, so I am confident she had this recipe tried and got it from the source… but, as I said – it is the hand of the maker that makes all of the difference. With my expertise and know how, I could not duplicate the LaHave Bakery oatcakes using this recipe. But, it is delicious!
And excellent advice, Aileen – thank you! I bet you are absolutely right about the fat. Most likely they do at least go half and half with butter and lard – if not all lard. But, you know, as well, that when bakeries or chefs that make massive batches are asked for recipes, often what you get isn’t even close to what they make.
🙂
Valerie
So true Valerie !! I have the other book Patisseries on order 🙂 It has a local distributor so I should have it next week – I will let you know what I find :)))
Xo, Aileen
The ingredient they have always used is
LOVE FOR THEIR FAMILY AND CUSTOMERS. That is my guess.
Agreed!
One other thought Valerie – I suspect they might use good old vegetable shortening rather than lard. But, who knows ?
I will report back in a week or so 🙂
Hugs, Aileen
Yes – also a possibility…
🙂
V
Spoke with the Bakery I was on the way to pick some up for myself and asked if any lard as I’m vegetarian ( vegan ). Yup. Lard is used. Maybe not all lard but a combo. That is the answer Valerie !!
Happy Canada Day, Aileen
Aileen!
So wonderful to have friends all over Canada – that is WILD and I so appreciate it!
🙂
V
Here is the final piece of the puzzle that I can add Valerie. I just picked up my copy of “Patisseries” and took a screen shot of the recipe but I can not paste it here. I will email it to you.
Best regards, Aileen
Thank you so much, Aileen! What a partner you have been in this quest. I will post the photo into the article!
🙂
Valerie
You are most welcome Valerie ! And as an aside, I think that your Oatcakes look much nicer than the Bakery’s !!
I may give the recipe a try using vegan butter ( certain margarines ) and see how they turn out 🙂
Best regards, Aileen in Nova Scotia xo
Hello Aileen,
when I searched the website of Valerie Lugonia I came across the oatcakes from La Have Bakery where she mentioned that you own a Thermomix may bei TM31.
I’m German , living in Bridgewater and I got a Thermomix TM5 a couple days ago.
I think there are not a lot people around who own a Thermomix.
I would be very pleased if you are willing to may be share your experiences with me – Looking forward to hearing from you eventually.
Hope you had a very Merry Christmas,
Gisela Schott
Email: gisela.schott@gmx.com
Welcome to the Thermomix family, Gisela!
🙂
Valerie
Hi Gisela :
I have the old style TM31 not the new version so I doubt that I can offer much insight.
I find that the Internet and specifically you-tube is a very helpful resource.
Happy New Year’s with your Thermomix, Aileen
Hi Aileen,
Thank you for your reply
Gisela
Gisela,
I would be happy to help you in any way, as well, any time. Of course I have a TM5 and sell them and am the company trainer here. I have sold to NS, NFLD and other places throughout our vast country, but those spots are particularly difficult to find a support group in. I believe there is a French speaking group in NB, but have definitely offered support to the English speaking owners there, too. Anything I can do to help in any language, I try.
Sincerely,
Valerie
I’ve never had an oatcake but definitely want to try the recipe you discovered. They look very tasty!
Interesting, El… most Eastern Seaboard recipes seemed to travel down the coast – but not the oatcake, eh?
;0
V
Hi mom,
I want to thank you for sending me with an extra bag of these to take home. since we have enjoyed one bag already, one would most certainly not be enough. these are delicious and very nutritious. Aaron really liked them too! I think we agree that although we liked both A LOT, we may like the brown sugar ones just a little more. I will have to make these on my own once our 2nd bag is empty, xoxoxo
Gee – did you give this recipe 5 stars – sure hope so! Looking forward to your strawberry pie photos so I can post them for Canada Day!
I’ve never tasted an oatcake but I applaud you for trying to replicate the recipe! They look delicious and hearty and great for a breakfast or snacking.
Valerie, your oatcake sounds so good.and hearty. Thank you for sharing
Let me know if you whip up a batch, Hadia! Thank you for chiming in! Where do you live?
🙂
V
Ah, the Congo! AN adventurer! I am crazy about Lebonese food and will investigate your site, further!
🙂
V
I love oatcakes and plan to try this recipe, the one I usually make is too sweet I find. But oatcakes aside I have to say the La Have Bakery makes fantastic scones! They are a lot denser than the usual English tea type and I do love a delicate scone, but the scones at the LH bakery are to die for and such interesting flavours too. I have tried and failed to replicate them, do you have any ideas?
Hi Jill!
Do you have a favourite recipe? I love oatcakes too, and so far the LaHave ones are the best, but I confess this recipe, though from my favourite Canadian icon via La Have Bakery – it is not the same recipe as the one they use at their store, sadly. It is delicious, but it is not the same. That is the recipe I still covet. So, no – I do not have their scone recipe, either. But, I am truly delighted I actually got to stop in at the bakery and spend an hour there breathing the air, drinking my cappuccino and savoring the oatcakes. I still dream of it.
🙂
Valerie
Valerie
I made the recipe you posted cutting my usual rounds not rectangles, really very good and I believe I will stick with this one, so thanks! I lived in NS for several years and never missed an opportunity to visit the La Have Bakery, even though it is on the other side of the province from where I lived. Nova Scotia is a small province and it was easy to take a spontaneous road trip to the south shore for whatever reason and there was always a stop at the bakery.
I’d love to know the secret of the scones they bake!
Dear Jill!
Tickled to hear this is your new go-to recipe! Photos, please!
🙂
Valerie
Tried these today. I used the shortening/butter combo and used boiling water. I found the dough a bit dry, so it was a little hard to work with. Because of this, I divided the dough in half and rolled it directly on to my lined cookie sheet. Then I scored it into rectangles and baked for 20 minutes. The result was flat, crisp oatcakes. I haven’t tried the LaHave Bakery originals (I always get the lemon squares when I go there… SO good!) but these are quite tasty! 🙂
Sorry to hear this, Crystal. I went through my entire post again, and cannot understand why your dough was dry. You can see the consistency of my dough and it is crumbly, but still moist enough to easily stick together in clumps. I am, however, glad they were tasty. I hope you are motivated to try them again! I definitely worked to build the height into mine as that is how the ones at LaHave are. Though none were the same as those famous ones at their bakery, they were close, absolutely delicious, and if I lived closer and was able to buy them regularly, I am confident I could develop a very very similar recipe. Alas, I am far away, happy that I have that vibrant taste memory vividly etched in my mind and that I can make a very close delicious cousin at home.
Wonderful to hear from you. Thank you so much for chiming in, and the lemon squares, well – you bet they are now added to my list next visit!.
Hugs,
Valerie
Hi, I’m just back from my most recent NS and, as usual, took advantage of my close proximity to the bakery, both in LaHave and in Mahone Bay. I bought oatcakes on three occasions and each package was different. Same taste but different textures! On the assumption that the ingredients were the same, the differences had to come from handling and/or oven temperature and/or baker’s decision regarding doneness. I appreciate that they are not mass-produced and therefore not uniform. For some, the softer texture is likely perfect. For me, it’s the crispier snappier texture that is dream-worthy. The softer ones were marginally thicker. Not by much but enough to keep me hunting until I found just the right ones. But rest assured, I ate them all! Just saved my preferred ones for last.
Sharon!
Thank you taking the time for this valuable comment! LaHave, I am certain, will be happy to hear that they have to do some work on their quality control! Haha. I didn’t know they had a second location in Mahone Bay. It is so true, no? Bread has 4 simple ingredients: bread, water, yeast, flour and salt. Ok, 5. And yet, the outcome is extreme – even with the same amount of each, completely dependent upon the hands in the dough. I agree with you and was fortunate to find that the one time purchase I made there was the crispy, snappy version… and most definitely dream worthy. Isn’t the East Coast a beautiful place?
🙂
V
Hello I am a Cape Breton baker, and we make tons of oatcakes here for the tourists and guests.
i would suggest using only white sugar, as the brown sugar makes them burn too fast. We also use half shortening and half butter so they stay firmer. The method is important, too. We cut in the fats like in pie crust, and add cold water, so then they are flakier..
We cut them very thin in squares, about 2 by 2 inches. and only bake till pale golden and puffed up.
In the old days, the women would put all the ingredients in a cloth, and the men would put it in their shirt and go out fishing or hunting. The body heat would blend the ingredients, and the men would form a big patty and bake it on the metal plate they would carry in their supplies. It was called a girdle (griddle). and could be cooked quickly on a campfire.
Thanks for the interesting article!
Joan O’Liari
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
I have been to Baddeck, Joan, and love your town! Such a pretty, pretty place! Enjoyed a tasty meal one Sunday at the hotel there with a brother and sister team on the piano, I seem to recall. Sorry I missed your oatcakes but so sincerely appreciate your story and your tips. I am an oatcake fan and truly love them. Would you be willing to share your entire recipe? (I had to ask! I find that those that bake – bake, but there are always those that will just buy. However, those that bake for a living don’t need to share their trade secrets with others that bake for a living, either – yet, even with the sharing of a recipe, it is impossible to share that extra somethin’ somethin’. Think about bread recipes: flour, water, yeast and salt – yet it is by the hand of the maker that the miracle is born. ) Fingers crossed, but understand either way and so appreciate the tips!
Warmly,
Valerie
I believe my first oatcake was enjoyed when my husband and I were touring Cape Bretain Island about 8 years ago… Or was it on our return trip two years later? Doesn’t matter, it was ‘love at first taste,” and we looked for them daily as a lovely snack or “hold-me-over until mealtime. One week we rented a home in Riverport and on several mornings we took the ferry across the river and headed for The Le Have Bakery for breakfast – or we would stop in when driving by. Their oatcakes are outstanding and inspired me to try and replicate them when I returned home, to no avail! I have Patisseries by James MacDougall. The oatcake recipe is good, but not as good as the LeHave Bakery. By the way, their “Butter Tarts” are wonderful, too! I so enjoy your blog. Thank you. Susan
Lovely to “meet” you, Susan! I will never forget my LeHave Bakery Oatcake experience. They are that good, aren’t they? You were so lucky to go back a few times!
🙂
Valerie
I made these tonight! Used 1.5 cups brown sugar, 1tsp salt, and 1/2 whole wheat 1/2 white flour. Rolled them out 1/2″ thick, cut with 3″ circle cutter. Made 1.5 dozen. Can’t wait to dip them in chocolate tomorrow!!
That sounds divine! So glad to hear you as tickled as I was to make them!
Hugs,
Valerie
You are so right this is an amazing version of oatcakes.
Figured I’d put out there though that there are hundreds of variations of this cake out there.
The clan MacKenzie has been making these since the 12th century.
I am pretty sure thatit has been around alot longer than that.
It even used to be a staple among farmers.
Thank you so much for chiming in, Donald! What an incredible family legacy you must have!
🙂
Valerie
Ummm. I grew up in Cape Breton. I loved the oatcakes from the Miner’s Museum in Glacé Bay. I lived right next to it as a child. I am willing to bet the secret ingredient is actually bacon grease/lard believe it or not. I have always detected just a hint of the flavour in those but they were sooooo good. Gonna give this recipe a go maybe using at least half bacon grease.
Thank you, Aaron!
Let me know how it goes and will learn from you!
🙂
Valerie
All the people who say you need to use lard for the best, flakiest oatcakes are absolutely right. A Cape Breton home cook passed on this tip from her mother who used to make them all the time. Use the big old fashioned oats as well for best results.
Thanks, Nadea!! I would never buy anything other than the large old fashioned oats. Thank you for reminding my readers that this is the only way to go! And, lard? Good advise. I have also heard that half butter and half lard works well. I’ll have to try both.
🙂
Valerie
I live in NS and rarely get down to LaHave. They have the BEST baked goods!
I followed the recipe in the picture and, if it’s not exactly their recipe, it’s pretty darned close. These oat cakes are absolutely delicious. Thanks so much for this post.
I agree – it is not EXACTLY like the oatcakes I ate while there – close, yes. I hope one day they do share their authentic recipe. There are always people that will buy – and people that bake. I never see sharing a recipe diminishing from the business.
Hugs
Valerie
I’ve never had LaHave Bakery’s oatcakes but I have tried to make a few recipes that never really worked. This recipe works and is incredibly delicious!! I would rather have an oatcake than a cookie or slice of cake that is how much I love them. I used the recipe that used a combination of butter and shortening. I’m looking forward to making them again with butter and lard.
I probably broke a sacred oatcake rule but I had some packets of flavored oatmeal that I wanted to use up (apple cinnamon). Since it already had sugar in it I used those and did not add any additional sugar to the recipe. I opened enough packets till I had the amount I needed for the oat measurement. It worked and was delicious!
Thank you so much for going thru all the trouble to post this recipe and story.
Thank YOU “for going through all the trouble” to post your love for these oatcakes and to share your very personal and moving story. I love writing my little food stories and missing doing it regularly. Working too hard on other projects, right now. So am just tickled you enjoyed the recipe and it brought you joy!
Hugs
Valerie
My tastebuds are in LOVE. What a great recipe.
I cut mine with a scone cutter into rounds, worked very well. I almost doubled the baking time. The bottom was a slightly darker brown but not burned and the top golden.
They are holding up well in a metal cookie tin between layers of parchment paper – well, they would have if I would not have already given half of them away.
I will try tonight two variations: blueberry and dark chocolate drizzle and Old aged cheddar, no sugar.
We love it too!I don’t understand your variations – but love the creativity!
Hugs
Valerie
My oatcake recipe (unsure of origins) is very similar to the Le Havre (3 cups oats—briefly pulsed), 3 cups flour, 1 cup sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 1 tsp cream of tartar, 1 tsp salt, 3/4 cup butter, 3/4 cup coconut oil (which started out as shortening), 1/3 cup water.). I have come to appreciate/love the light underlying coconut flavour, although it is not traditional. I baked a batch yesterday (rounds) rolled fairly thin (thinner than 1/4″). I roll the dough in more pulsed oats, instead of flour. Ended up with about 60+ delicious, thin, and crispy oatcakes. Wish it were possible to post my picture.
HI Kristi,
You can always post your photo with the link to my recipe on my facebook page! I would love to see it!
Thanks for sharing your tips! I love them!
Happy 2021!
Valerie
Friday was a blustery day in Cole Harbour last week and, after three weeks with our daughter-in-law and our 2-year-old granddaughter I wanted to leave something special behind for the two of them while Dad’s still out to sea. it’s busy there with both of them in the military, so we cook and bake when we’re there. They’re healthy eaters so the LaHave Bakery oatcakes seemed to fit the bill while also being reminiscent of my Scottish roots. Baking is my first love and I do have a recipe my mother used to make, which we just called oatmeal cookies. Very similar to these, but rolled and cut in rounds. The LaHave Bakery promise of crisp and flakey, along with your suggestion that they could use extra time in the oven, promised me what I was looking for. I used only unbleached white flour, only butter, added a handful of ground flax, and rolled and cut as suggested. They were a huge hit and, in fact, the Nova Scotia native in his 80s who lives on the harbour across the street said they were the best he’s ever eaten. And, while I cut the butter in with a pastry blender, I also rubbed it in with my fingertips, as I do with scones, because that’s essential to having the distribution of cold butter bits that burst into the flakey and crisp texture we all love.
Dearest Heather
What a lovely picture you painted in your writing, above.
I was there, with you – that blustery day and that warm oven with the scent of the freshly baked oatcakes out of the oven….
YUM
I am so happy to hear that the recipe was a hit. I think I need to go make another batch right now. That trip was very meaningful to me.
Sincerely
Valerie
Can you believe it’s been more than 10 months since that blustery day when I used your recipe? We’ve had a snow storm here in Ottawa over the past day, so it’s a good time to make hearty soups and, of course, oat cakes. ☺️ our military kids were both transferred back here last summer with their 3-year-old. At the moment, though, we’re helping feed a family who are going through two medical ordeals. Oat cakes are food for the soul, so I’ll tuck a package of them in with soup tomorrow. And I’ll save a few for the kids here. This time I used butter and lard – 3/4 of a cup of each. Thanks again for this recipe which is now one of my favourites.
I like to use weight when I bake, and I take things on my scale with each ingredient. Whoever did the volume conversions to weight made errors all the way through. For example, one cup of whole wheat flour does not weigh 250 grams. Virtually every ingredient has been converted incorrectly, which definitely has an affect on the results. I’m surprised a baker doesn’t realize this.
Tare, not take